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fallengusto
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PostSubject: testing decks   Sat Aug 10, 2013 4:22 pm

I know i don't have a rep here. But i do have something to bring up. I have seen a few tests where the tester is using a deck that makes it to where the testee cant make a decent turn for himself/herself. This prevents the testee from showing his/her true potential. I would like to suggest some form of 'limitation' to the decks and/or cards that a tester can use during a test, excluding certain kinds of decks (ones that lock down and keep the testee from doing anything included) from being used. It will at least give the testee a way to prove themselves worthy of a dorm that fits their skill level. Thank you for your time.
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Sat Aug 10, 2013 7:24 pm

fallengusto wrote:
I know i don't have a rep here. But i do have something to bring up. I have seen a few tests where the tester is using a deck that makes it to where the testee cant make a decent turn for himself/herself. This prevents the testee from showing his/her true potential. I would like to suggest some form of 'limitation' to the decks and/or cards that a tester can use during a test, excluding certain kinds of decks (ones that lock down and keep the testee from doing anything included) from being used. It will at least give the testee a way to prove themselves worthy of a dorm that fits their skill level. Thank you for your time.

This is why i have fear of testing lmao
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fallengusto
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:49 am

And furthermore, how can you make a good deck analysis and make a score for their deck construction if the duel literally only lasts a couple of turns back and forth?
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:04 am

I have to disagree on this. If the person who is being tested does not stand a chance to the tester's deck (Which would not be tier 1) then the deck is simply bad. Decks should be able to defend themselves even against powerful and fast decks.
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fallengusto
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:05 pm

Tell you what. Find one more person to disagree and i will just drop it and walk away like it never happened. Until then i will stick to my own opinions without influence from others. nobody will say anything to convince me otherwise. I mean really I've seen testers go head to head with testees and lose due to the testee having a strong deck choice, BUT.. I have also seen testees get completely dominated and humiliated because the tester was using a deck FAR beyond the capabilities of the testee, giving that testee absolutely no fair chance at winning or even proving their capabilities at all. For the sake of argument we could just find some sort of median to manage this type of situation. I believe this is fixable, it just takes somebody with a strong enough willpower to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:57 pm

fallengusto wrote:
Tell you what. Find one more person to disagree and i will just drop it and walk away like it never happened. Until then i will stick to my own opinions without influence from others. nobody will say anything to convince me otherwise. I mean really I've seen testers go head to head with testees and lose due to the testee having a strong deck choice, BUT.. I have also seen testees get completely dominated and humiliated because the tester was using a deck FAR beyond the capabilities of the testee, giving that testee absolutely no fair chance at winning or even proving their capabilities at all. For the sake of argument we could just find some sort of median to manage this type of situation. I believe this is fixable, it just takes somebody with a strong enough willpower to do it.
So your ignoring my argument, interesting logic.
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:38 am

Oh don't be like that, "For the sake of argument we could just find some sort of median to manage this type of situation." by saying this i meant that we my be able to come to some sort of agreement. I am not arguing with you in any way, simply implying that I won't quit telling people what isn't right in my own opinion. We all have our opinions and we have a right to post them here. I appreciate you telling me your opinion, and i will take notice of it in debates to come, but as of right now we will gain virtually nothing to debate this topic, and I think that saying "So your ignoring my argument, interesting logic." was out of line and off topic, not to mention pretty rude and a rash decision of words, as it helps neither of us. You have stated your opinion, I have stated mine, let us move on shall we?
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:20 am

Wasnt king the one that kept running Katakuri lockdown in testing?
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TheAfterman(Infernex24)
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:44 am

Well IMHO a test deck should be something put together and kept secret among testers specifically for testing. 2-3 different decks that have a decent amount of various traps, and archetypes setups that can show someone ability to combat something that they have seen as well as something they haven't encountered enough to know counter-play's to. Having the tester use two different decks and if a 1-1-0 situation occurs all 3 decks will help to show off a persons strength as well as manage to show what they need improvement in. And to further support this the testers would have to come together privately and make these decks that they can agree on in secret to become the test decks#1-3 kept only known to testers. This ensures no one can deck against them, and using them in a random order assure no one will be able to predict what to do. In light of this a lot of the power is being given to the testers which means it will take some arguing especially when it comes to archetypes suitable for testing and the ever famous summon traps/negation decks. No one wants to be tested against XX-Sabers, having everything negated between monster summons and spells/traps. So in summary:

.1-3 Test Decks
.Decks Chosen and modified as seen fit by a GROUP effort of testers
.Random Deck order used to prevent counter decking
.Certain Archetypes(Decided by testers) to be deemed unsuitable for testing.
.A limit to certain archetype specific cards/non-archetype negation cards(Privately among testers)

Also, if someone draws a truly shitty hand, and i dont mean a "lol, bad hand gg" i mean more of a "Holy phuck, I'm playing Dark Worlds and I just drew a hand of non draw boosting spells and traps." Kinda hands. Let them play out the duel and see if they can salvage it, but allow them to show you it, at their discretion, to take into account it as a small fraction of their total score. Such as on a scale of 1-10, what could you have pulled off with that hand. The best part is its a double edged sword, they may only end up getting 5 points for the hand but then you know everything that they have initially, so pulling off a win would net them more skill points or wherever those points would go.
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fallengusto
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:07 am

Infernex....that is absolutely genius
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TheAfterman(Infernex24)
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:39 am

and as pointed out by marluxia, by secret i dont mean keep on the hush hush of whats in the deck exactly, but more like keep the decision on traps/spells limiting and use of them to minimum so some games you might just run 1 bottomless if your archetype has another similar card, and in another deck you may need to run 2, in a nother none. And if each tester is basically testing the decks that each other use and making sure they giver everyone a fair shot, no one will just slide into where they arent supposed to be, or get put down where they aren't. Im totally fine with where I am now, but for an example, if i ran Utopia's i may have made Obelisk in my test but instead i run gimmicks and there just so happens to be the opportunity to continually summon rai oh to negate a lot of my summons. This basically meant while it was intended, the deck still got shut down when it may have been able to show more potential. While running Utopia, just kinda ran over everything after it got started. So looking at this i see a problem, even if it cant be solved in the ways i mention the problem is there. The test deck should change at least once or twice to assure that everyone gets a fair shot. Im not saying DONT, abuse cards to give them a challenge, just dont make decks that are DESIGNED to make the testee basically fail. Im a Dark Worlds player, and im an OTK second turn maniac with it. With a few different combinations i cna get 2-3 graphs, DAD, and my field spell atk boost on field at the same time while siultaneously clearing the enemy field, and shutting down their hand via, Virus cards. So in no way would that deck be remotely feasible to be used as testing because one, i strip all their 1500 atk and less monsters, which is sure to slow down all decks, as well as make some totally useless. (Wind Ups and Gimmicks GG) And on top of that they lose their ability to play either spells or traps??? If I pulled this off in the firtst 3 turns of the game you could be sure they would hit slifer. But then i come at them playing constellars, and they do pretty decent give a fair fight and most likely win. Deck choice is everything in testing and if you let the testee use anything they choose you guys need to have a standard.
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Kaiba Corp Prime
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:00 am

Karakuri's would be me, and they only lockdown Spells and traps, and occasionally monster effects
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:21 am

TheAfterman(Infernex24) wrote:
Well IMHO a test deck should be something put together and kept secret among testers specifically for testing.  2-3 different decks that have a decent amount of various traps, and archetypes setups that can show someone ability to combat something that they have seen as well as something they haven't encountered enough to know counter-play's to. Having the tester use two different decks and if a 1-1-0 situation occurs all 3 decks will help to show off a persons strength as well as manage to show what they need improvement in. And to further support this the testers would have to come together privately and make these decks that they can agree on in secret to become the test decks#1-3 kept only known to testers. This ensures no one can deck against them, and using them in a random order assure no one will be able to predict what to do. In light of this a lot of the power is being given to the testers which means it will take some arguing especially when it comes to archetypes suitable for testing and the ever famous summon traps/negation decks. No one wants to be tested against XX-Sabers, having everything negated between monster summons and spells/traps. So in summary:

.1-3 Test Decks
.Decks Chosen and modified as seen fit by a GROUP effort of testers
.Random Deck order used to prevent counter decking
.Certain Archetypes(Decided by testers) to be deemed unsuitable for testing.
.A limit to certain archetype specific cards/non-archetype negation cards(Privately among testers)

Also, if someone draws a truly shitty hand, and i dont mean a "lol, bad hand gg" i mean more of a "Holy phuck, I'm playing Dark Worlds and I just drew a hand of non draw boosting spells and traps." Kinda hands. Let them play out the duel and see if they can salvage it, but allow them to show you it, at their discretion, to take into account it as a small fraction of their total score. Such as on a scale of 1-10, what could you have pulled off with that hand. The best part is its a double edged sword, they may only end up getting 5 points for the hand but then you know everything that they have initially, so pulling off a win would net them more skill points or wherever those points would go.
I see where u r coming from but all testers have different play styles so we cant have a limited number of decks, in my tests i refrain from using any tiered deck (inlcuding 2 and 3) to make it fair but you have to realise getting that balance of using a deck that is weak enough for you guys to fight against us but strong enough so the test is not a push over is very hard. I will try to see if i can make it fairer for u guys but we still have to be challenging because we cant just put everyone in top dorms. Ill try to find a way to make it fairer, but you realise we cant judge what u guys are using because u have the freedom to use up to tier 1 and we cant say anything about it u would just lose some points for tiers and we will probably lose. Again i would prefer it if both testees and testers would not use tiered decks but that cannot be made possible without hurting a lot of decks and then there is that problem with using good cards to help speed up ur deck and if that would count as using a high tiered deck or if it counts as a tech. You see this is very complicated on both sides. I know u guys want to be tested fairly and i believe all testers should not be using tier 1-2 decks but the thing is people innovate and that is both a good thing and a bad thing. If i take the example of the karakuri deck, that deck is not tier 1 or 2 bit it seems he has made the deck more consistent and able to lock people down, that is showing the skill of the tester NOT the brokeness of the deck. This puts it down to the judgement of each teachers. I know i am repeating myself with my next statement but this is a thing I personally would like to stress the most, if for instance i chose a fun deck to use for a test against u guys for example king of the skull servants, but it turns out my opponent is using mermails or fire fists or dark worlds which all have the ability to destroy cards by card effects and kill my skull servant who is my win condition, i would have to put you into the top dorm which you may not have deserved or got into if i was using a deck that was still fun but maybe had a few cards such as skill drain or d-fissure that countered ur deck. The line between what is unfair and what is a challenge is very hard to get exact so it is going to be a problem to get that exact and to be frank the only way we can solve this problem with 100% confidence is to say everyone can use tier 1 so then both players can have the decks that are most competitive and then since those decks will both be around the same level it will be down to how skilful the duelist is, but I know this might not appeal to some people, including myself as they wont like to have a battle using decks that are so broken. So yea i will try to think and find a way around this problem if you have any other ideas let me now and i will see if they are valid.
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fallengusto
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:15 am

Or, or....hear me out here. Or.....we can ban cards/archetypes from being used by tester AND testee. I've seen academies do that before, and the testing system worked quite well.
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Thu Aug 15, 2013 6:21 am

Do you want me to simplify the problem?

Decks that prevent the testee from showing their deck means that the tester's analysis of deck construction is uninformed and, therefore, useless.
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:23 am

Well GG thats all i was hoping for, at least glad to know you can take notice of the issue. While there may be no present solution to it, it is nice to know someone is working towards some form of goal. And maybe banning cards/archetypes on both sides is really the only way to truly test worth. Maybe even mirror match if you have to. Simply because the same way the testee can run Dark Worlds via your Skull servant and hit obelisk, he could be running Skull Servant against a deck with similar destruction eff, or even simple cards like mirror force and magic cylinder which basically means he/she is getting into Slifer and IF, he/she gets lucky ra. I can understand your point though, its a delicate process and balancing it will take time and group effort, im just glad that someone higher up in the academy ranks is taking notice of this ;D
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:44 am

Ok then considering this is important to you guys, if one of you can rewrite the testing system and send me it, if it will be used I will make the writer an admin.
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TheAfterman(Infernex24)
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:28 am

Well thank you for that oppurtunity although Id rather leave the admin position so someone like SirIron or Kisara but i will still drop by my input on a proper testing system
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:49 pm

Hmm..... I'll take a close look at this and see what I can do to improve the situation.
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fallengusto
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:45 am

Thanks for actually paying attention to this Seto
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:17 pm

Yeah im almost done, just need a few more tweaks to what should be done
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:38 am

I'm a curious guy, think you can private message me the details on here watapon buddy? I won't tell you to change anything, nor will i tell anybody, I just think that this is a unique time in this academy's experience.
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:24 am

When i am finished with it and before i post it sure
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Tue Aug 20, 2013 11:58 am

Yesss *fist pump*
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PostSubject: Re: testing decks   Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:43 am

I've already sent my ideas to Seto. He wanted to give other people a chance to offer their opinions before making his decision.
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